The Psychology of Marketing and Communication - Sean D'Souza interview

What is the psychology behind why people make buying decisions, how they learn and what they remember? Sean D'Souza from Psychotactics is an expert is the psychology of marketing. He is also author of the book, The Brain Audit. In this episode of The Knowledge industry Podcast he explains how he built his business around understanding the psychology that shapes himself and others. 

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Transcript

 

00:00

Coming up on the knowledge industry podcast,

 

Sean D'Souza  00:02

usually what people are doing is they're rushing through it. They give you all the information, and they assume that the information is going to solve your problem. But the information only makes you tired, which is why people abandon most courses very quickly.

 

mark egan  00:17

So today's topic, what's the psychology behind why we do what we do? Why do we buy? How do we learn? Today's guest is Shawn D'Souza from psycho tactics. He's an expert in the psychology of marketing. He's written the book, the brain audit, and he set up his business in an interesting way. That gives him lots of freedom

 

00:36

to sell online courses or run live workshops. Do you have expertise that can help people in life or business? Are you even running an online training Empire from your kitchen table? Then you're part of the knowledge industry, a fast growing industry, that means that you can learn almost anything, and anyone can create a business around what's between their ears. Welcome to the knowledge industry podcast with your host, Mark Egan,

 

mark egan  01:03

Sean, thank you for joining me tell us where exactly are you at the moment.

 

Sean D'Souza  01:07

I'm in Auckland, New Zealand, the land of the middle of the middle, that's where we are.

 

mark egan  01:15

Suddenly, what everybody thinks of it now isn't that I've never been to New Zealand. But everybody I've spoken to been there. It's just like, the scenery like you have to see the scenery. So it's definitely on my bucket list. But I was just saying to you before we started recording that I came across you a good few years ago. And I still remember like apps like sentences, you said in some training I did. So this, clearly, you've got an ability to get inside people's minds. So we're talking a little bit about what you do in a moment. But if we were to get back into your story, now, most people have a kind of a pivotal moment, a moment where kind of they changed direction or the penny dropped for you What is that pivotal moment.

 

Sean D'Souza  01:56

I think it was the day I read Good to Great. And what I got stuck on was the first line, which is good as the enemy of great. And I was a cartoonist back then. And I thought Calvin and Hobbes is the greatest cartoon strip I've ever seen. And I don't think at this point, I could beat it. So that kind of got me. So I think pivotal moments that things they kind of shake you up. They're not necessarily I mean, I could have read any book at that point in time and you know, gone off in a different direction. I think that a, you have to be ready for that change. And then when the change comes along, it rattles you enough so that you have to make that change.

 

02:48

And what was it? Because that's obviously a great book in the sense that it's it's basically pushing you to, to go further and maybe not settle for this is pretty good. So when when you read that, what what did it change? What did it make you think differently about?

 

Sean D'Souza  03:05

I think the whole book kind of resonated with me in different levels. Even though it was a management book, it wasn't even like a marketing book or anything but but what probably made me think was, what can I do? that really stands out in a way. So I didn't want to stand out, I wanted the work to stand out. I've never been one to sign stuff. I've never been one to, like I do cartoons, I don't sign them. My wife calls you have to sign this. So things like that. I don't I don't tend

 

03:40

to is that because you don't need the adulation or the credit for that. It's like you're happy. The work speaks for itself.

 

Sean D'Souza  03:48

I think it's just today's work, tomorrow's work is going to be better. Anyway. I know that. I don't know how but I know that. And that's kind of I don't think of it consciously. I just never have. Even as a kid. My mother would tell me to sign stuff. I wouldn't bother with it. I don't really care that much

 

mark egan  04:08

about it. Yeah. So you were a cartoonist. And then you've read this book. And that obviously takes you on to a different journey. So what did you do after that?

 

Sean D'Souza  04:20

So so when I got to New Zealand, I was still a cartoonist. And then after that, I decided, hey, the difference between living in India and in New Zealand was that I was doing the same thing. So it wasn't there wasn't any different. It was a different country, but I wasn't doing anything different. So I thought, How can I kind of take more breaks because, to me, the most fundamental thing of all is just time it is because time allows you to rest, it allows you to create new stuff, it allows you to break stuff that you've already made and then you know, recreate it again. So time to me is more crucial than anything else. And That's kind of what I was not getting more of. And also when I was going on holiday, you know, other other cartoonists were getting my work, and then I have to work harder to, to get that holiday time back, it was just a mess. And that's what started me reading marketing books now had already been in as a copywriter in Leo Burnett. So it wasn't like, it was a brand new field. But I'd never seen, you know, advertising and marketing are slightly different. And what I wanted to do was market the cartoons, I never intended to be in advertising or marketing, I never intended to be marketing. And then when I started figuring out what marketing was really about, it wasn't boring. It was how you presented something to someone in the way that they were expecting to be presented. So it was like a kind of gift that you're giving them and they wanted a gift anyway. Because one thing I found really interesting, when I first came across you was a lot of people, whatever they do, you know, even if they're trying to master a new social media platform or something, they're coming at it from like, the tactics of, you know, that like, how does this platform work? Or like if if they're doing trying to sell a product, you know, something, you know, almost with the sales page, whereas what you were doing was actually understanding how people think, and the psychology and then once you put those two together, things seem to make a bit more sense. How did you get sort of in more into this psychology, but how did you understand that that was the ingredient that perhaps a lot of people weren't looking deeply in to, you know, looking, looking into enough. One of the things that I have is a great sense of security, that I can break things, and then put them back together. That's the security that I have. So often, when I put together something, I'll send it out to other people. And usually they'll come back with this doesn't work, that doesn't work, that doesn't work. It's the mind of I didn't think of it back then. But it's the mind of a software coder. They put together software, and then they send it out. And then people come back, oh, this needs to be fixed this bug, you know, this bug needs to be fixed. And I think that's kind of what I do to this day. Like, right now I'm running a sales page course. And I've done it five times before in different countries. And every time we do it in different countries, it's different. And then I've written the notes, I've got everything, but I decided let's do it online over three months, let's slow down this whole process and see where people are making mistakes. And so in that way, I'm kind of breaking it in the way that instead of doing it just over three days, you do it over three months. And people have this slow motion kind of geological kind of time to make mistakes. And so you can see the fine tuning of those mistakes. But also, when things are working really well, I will break it, like this week, have given them an assignment that they that took them completely off course from where they were so far. Which means that I have to work twice as hard, because I don't know where I'm going either. And the good thing is that clients trust in what I'm doing. And as one client said, they said, We don't know where you're going, you don't know where you're going. But you have a good up GPS system. So we'll go with you

 

08:29

guys. And I suppose that almost goes back to that good to great, isn't it, the fact that something is kind of working, okay, that's not good enough for you. It's but we got to make this better and better and better. And, you know, when it comes to marketing, you said that you started reading books and where you worked and everything and copywriting, which is obviously helps you persuade people to buy something. It's a jump from actually kind of getting this or I'm learning something to thinking, you know, I know enough here to teach other people. How was that jump to go from? I know a bit about this stuff, too. I should be teaching this.

 

Sean D'Souza  09:03

I don't think that settles in quite quickly, as you'd expect. Most people have this. I know this stuff. I don't think it's as valuable. I think they kind of struggle with it. And I struggled with it a long time. cartooning was something I did. I mean, drawing was something I did as a kid, then, you know, school people said, Oh, you're a good artist and stuff like that. So that was easy to go from there to a cartoonist. It was also easy to kind of go from writing to copywriting as a in an ad agency. But to go from cartooning to marketing, that was difficult, and I think I don't think there's a formula for I think you just have to do it long enough, like maybe a year's time before you just get tired of people going, Oh, you're so good at this. And once you get tired, then yeah, and we do this also we teach a cartooning course and most people To start off with, of course don't know how to draw, they always say, you know, I can't draw a straight line, everybody says that. But after six buttons, they're all drawing really good cartoons. And repeatedly people, we tell them go out and draw in public, like, go to a cafe and draw it because people will come up to you and say, Oh, you're a professional cartoonist. And then you have to fob them off many times to go, Oh, no, no, no, I'm just this is just a hobby. Did you get tired of that? And when you get tired of that, that's when you know, well, now you made it, because I'm doing this now with with my cat with my photographs. So I've moved from God, not move, but I use the photographs. I take a lot of photographs and people go, you should you know, you're a professional. I mean, kids come up to me and go, Oh, you're a professional photographer, because they see me with a camera. And I go, No, it's a hobby. But now I've just given up, I think, I think if you do it long enough, where you start, where you give up, saying, I'm not that you go off to hell with this. Because it's

 

11:09

in so many fields, people are almost expecting, you know, like the Queen when she comes in Knights you and says right now your official, they're expecting some kind of ceremony. And then they can call themselves this or almost own their their skills. You mentioned the cartooning. So what's your take on some people, I teach a lot of video skills. And there are people on courses or on programs that I do. And they'll say, I'm just, I'm just not visual, or I don't I don't have the eye for this. I've just, I've just no good at this. And then shortly afterwards, they create something and they look at it and well, you know, I didn't realize I could do this. Do you think that people could pretty much learn anything within reason? If the training is good? Or is it a matter of you know, something like cartooning, you've got it or you don't.

 

Sean D'Souza  12:02

So the agenda for people who are very talented is to keep you on talented. That's one kind of main agenda. It's I've been to watercolor class where the teacher just says, You can never be like me. So that's part of the agenda. A second part of the agenda is, I'm really good. But I don't know how to teach you this stuff. So that's like, okay, it's a big struggle now. But there is a prevalent belief that talent is inborn. Talent is a gift, which makes it very silly when so for instance, I don't go around talking about this. But I cook really well I draw, I dance. I write I teach courses. What else? The whole, I take photographs, there are like six or seven things that I meant seven on 10, eight on 10. So what the guy behind me got nothing. That's that's the problem, right? Because if you treat it as a gift, then I've got all the gifts, but there are only a finite number of gifts. So the guy behind me gets nothing. So that's, that's the first problem. Whatever I've found over the years is that you, most people learn by how to, but really, talent is a reduction of arrows, which is like driving a car. So people get in the car, and they make 50 arrows, and then they make 49 arrows and 40 arrows into it after a week, you're making five arrows. Of course, you make that for the rest of your life, because you're stupid. But it's, it's they're making those errors. And once you reduce those errors down to nothing, you have a talent. Now, it doesn't mean that you're a genius, as in your you're not Michael Phelps, and you're not Michael Phelps not because of anything is because Michael Phelps is still at the peak of his ability like you are, and then spending six hours in the pool every day of the year. And he's got a coach, and he's got a system and he's got all that stuff. So what what I call this, this in between phase, so there is this complete in competency. And there is this genius level, which requires enormous effort, enormous. You know, coaching, and this is this is one thing that people don't understand is that if you look at the top performers in the world, none of them are trying to figure it out themselves. All of them have coaches, all of them have systems, routines, discipline, everything built into the system. Nobody goes oh wait, I am going to the Olympics next year, or in three years or four years. I'm just going to figure it out. So So essentially, what what, if you look at talent as being reduction of errors. The reason why people don't succeed is because they make errors. So they put the mic in the wrong place, they put the video camera in the wrong place, they light it wrongly. Like, for instance, right now, you know, I'm moved this light, my nieces can been coming around and fiddling with the slide, I know it's in the wrong place. But I don't know enough to make it look like a movie set. So that's a bunch of arrows that I'm making that I don't know how to fix. If I know how to fix it, then it's a matter of coming in moving in switching it on. Now, you're talented at lightning. So. So what we have to do is we have to figure out what the errors are in the first place. And when we figure out what the errors are. Now, I'm attuned to those arrows, and I stopped making them. And I'm telling dude,

 

15:55

right, so if you were to look at online education, you know, coaching, online courses, all that kind of thing, with your knowledge of psychology, what you've had to learn yourself, and also what you teach, what are the main things you think that people are getting wrong in how they're trying to teach others the skills or expertise that they have?

 

Sean D'Souza  16:18

Yeah, so the first thing is easily, the biggest problem is, is inflammation. So inflammation, what it does is tire you out to just exhaust you. And what people tend to do is they give you more information. And so then they'll go, Oh, 50 more videos or 20 more. But what you're really doing is, you have to look at the same thing, like a photographer, so photographer, if you, if you get an average person, I don't know, take a picture of a flower, they lift up their camera, they take a picture, maybe they'll take two more pictures, and they don't just stand in that same position. And the photographer will approach it from bottom up, left, right, different times of day or night or whatever. Usually, what needs to be done is one task needs to be done really well, like, you know, 50% 60%, not 100%, then you go. So you go finish a novel, do a plus b. So we spend like a week, sometimes two weeks on one task, different ways. So it's so instead of boring, you're not practices, stupid practices, doing the same thing over and over again, but angles of practice, which is I'm taking the same picture from different angles, different heights, different times of day. Now I'm doing the same practice in different ways. So it's interesting, because now I see a world that I've not seen before. So you spend time on a and then after a is done, you go to B, so you have now a plus b, then you have a plus b plus c. And so it's a factor of time. And usually what people are doing is they're rushing through it, they give you all the information, and they assume that the information is going to solve your problem. But the information only makes you tired, which is why people abandon most courses very quickly. Because what's not happening is not that layering is not happening, which is a plus b, a plus b plus c A plus B plus C. Now, let's do something really crazy, that has nothing to do with a plus b plus c. And so learning essentially has this, like it has to be easy, then it gets a little difficult, it gets more difficult to get easy again, then it gets a little difficult. And so you there, um, there are many things that you have to do.

 

18:36

Like if you're if you're watching a film, isn't it that if it was a war movie, yeah, if it's just bang, bang, bang, bang constantly for two hours, you'll switch off. So they need those little moments of pause or a bit of humor to mix it up to keep your attention. So in a sense, if you just put 40 videos or the same, that's almost like these machine guns isn't it's just relentless. Whereas what you're saying is, you know, make a bit of progress, make it interesting, switch it up, actually, again, coming back to how the brain works, keep things changing, keep things keep them engaged,

 

Sean D'Souza  19:08

right. And also, you as a learner, you love to complete stuff. So for instance, Chapter One can be 20 pages, but chapter two is three pages. Oh, I finished two chapters. And you think that's silly, but it's not silly. When you you know, if you listen to podcasts, you know this to be true. You listening to this podcast is one hour long, it goes for one hour, and then you have only 45 minutes. So then you have to listen to the next day and then you have 15 minutes. And then the second podcast shows up on the next day and now it's a one hour long and now you're 15 or 30 minutes behind, so there's no sense of completion you're always behind. But if the next one we're so one hour and then 15 minutes and then 20 minutes and then five minutes and you go oh I finished four podcasts. The feeling of Completion is far greater than so from friends From a creative create from a point of you being the creator of information, you have to understand that people need to get to the end. First of all, to feel happy. Secondly, it's often when you get to the end that you realize what the beginning was about. So they have to get to the end. And if they don't get to the end, they don't understand.

 

20:21

Yeah. And I think another thing that I mentioned briefly earlier, is the storytelling aspect. Like I said, there are stories that I heard you tell, years and years and years ago now, I can't remember what I had for lunch yesterday. But I remember those, like I mentioned to you before the call, I can, even now you know, when I'm writing certain kinds of copy, I can hear your voice in my head, you know, like Obi Wan Kenobi. Tell us a bit about how you approach weaving those in like, how tactical are you about where you put stories in your training.

 

Sean D'Souza  20:56

The moment I get stuck myself in trying to explain a concept I put in a story. That's how it works, because that's precisely the place where the other person gets stuck. So you start off with a concept. So for instance, right now, I'm teaching people how to make story testimonials, incidentally. So if you look at the brain audit, or you read the brain on it, you have a chapter, I think it's chapter six, on testimonials, chapter five, chapter six, on testimonials, and there are six testimonials there. And what happens with those success manuals, when you ask a client, those six questions, you get, like 1000 word answer, which is incredible. But there is a problem with that testimonial format. And that testimonial format shows you that before. That is before I bought the product before I bought your course before I did this, and then the after, which is traditionally what we are doing. What makes it a story testimonial is when you have the in between. Now you go, how does that work? Now see, you are feeling the tension at the same time I'm feeling the tension, I want to explain it to you. So I go there before is Monday. Friday is the after what happened on Wednesday that you can remember, now I can explain to you with an example of what Wednesday looks like and why it why it makes a story testimonial. So now, when we meet six years from now, or 15 years from now, you can remember Monday, Friday and Wednesday. And it helps you remember that and you don't actually have to listen to it again. Which is why also when you're listening to audio, the second time you get to the same story you go I know the story. That's precisely the concept. It's actually the story is boring the second time around. And the concept still needs to be worked on. But the story's boring the second time around, because you remember it?

 

22:54

Yeah. So I mean, getting into the psychology of you know, storytelling. A lot of people make courses or have coaching programs, and they've got great expertise, they can really help people. And the big obstacle they have is actually persuading anybody of the value of that. And this is something that you are amazing. You know, as far as Good to Great, this is definitely in your zone of genius. What do you think most people who are online educators of some kind are getting wrong when they're trying to persuade people that, hey, I've got a great course or coaching program here. You should buy it and people are not buying it. What do you think are the main things they're not understanding?

 

Sean D'Souza  23:36

People don't buy, when you're ready, they buy when they're ready. And they buy when they're ready when they like you and they review. And so effectively, two kind of things are moving at the same time. One is the factor of risk. And the second is the factor of like, now, we don't need that much like to begin with, we just need to reduce risk. So I'll give you an example. My computer was going really slow, I need to buy Ram. So I go to online and I look and there is risk, like how do I know that the ram I'm going to buy is going to fit is going to be fine for my Mac. Secondly, you know, I don't know how good the Mac the RAM is, and it's $800 and now I have to make that decision. So there are all these risk factors that have to be reduced before I buy something. And in the brain audit, there are four three risk factors. The first is objections, what are the objections, I have to buy anything? You know, people will say you should put solar on your roof you go, but I have this problem. But I have that problem. So you get through objections. You have testimonials. No objections often approach it from a data point of view. This is what happens that's what happens. And a data point of view is like if you put solar panels This is the wattage and this is the blah, blah, blah. But if you go, you know, my your, your, your uncle also put, and you speak to your uncle and your uncle is there as testimony and going, you know, I put this and this solar panels and this is what happened. Now that reduces the risk as well. And then finally, you have a risk reversal. So these, there are many other factors of risk reduction. But these are the three that you can put into play straightaway, which is, what are the objections, and then you answer them in a data kind of format, give all the information that you need testimonials bring the emotional kind of impact to it. And then the risk reversal is really not necessarily money back because people had their money before they gave it to you. So people don't buy a coffee so that they can get their money back, they buy a coffee because they want something in return something specific. So you have to understand that the money back guarantee works, because there's no other option. But if you say you went to a kindergarten, and you put your kid in the kindergarten, what are the risk factors? Well, there's bullying, there's the quality quality of the teachers, there is, I don't know, the fencing, there are all these risk factors. And you only have to face the biggest risk factor, which is bullying, probably. And so if you take away the actual risk, not just, hey, here's your money back. If you take away the actual risk, then people don't even care about the money back. They never cared about the money by the way. At any point, they wanted a result, they don't want the money. So a approach it from objections, which is data, testimonials, which has emotions. And then finally, what is the real risk that I'm feeling. And once you've reduced that risk, now it's a factor of the light factor is going up. So like comes in from your About Us page, from we have cartoons on the page, we have stories. So those are all very soft, fuzzy kind of things that you also need to have. But if you don't have that, I mean, I can sell ram without any of the like factors. I just have to remember that there are these risk factors that I have to reduce. And that's kind of the mistake that people make, which is they don't they assume that their product is good. But I'm not interested in your product, I'm only interested in the risk that I have to bear

 

27:29

isn't really interesting. You mentioned again, the cartoons. And I know, you have courses on lots of different subjects now. Now, normally, you're told look, pick a niche or niche, be the person then you're known for that. And obviously, you are breaking that rule completely because you're you're doing different things. How does that? Did you worry that hey, my personal branding, in the marketing space and all this, it's really, really high. If I start training courses about something not specifically related, will that just be weird branding? Did that worry you at all when you started to do that?

 

Sean D'Souza  28:09

No, because I don't worry about other people to begin with. And I know that other people are worried about other people and what they think and what the books saying what you know, I don't worry about those kinds of things. Nonetheless, I have a, there's a friend of mine, Lynda Weinman, you many people know her as the owner of lynda.com. And when Lynda started out, she was basically doing HTML classes. And so they then built the website into just Photoshop and all the technology stuff. And one day when we were having dinner, she said, I said, what was the biggest surprise that you found on lynda.com? And she says the photography class, and I go, What? And she says, Yeah, the photography class, we had this guy, I forgot his name now. But she said randomly, we put in the photography class, and we got like, so many downloads, it was like incredible people who are just waiting for this. And now if you go to lynda.com, and it's sold now to LinkedIn, you find exactly what you're saying, Well, what is what is, you know, what is photography and they have a slew of of different things that don't fit together in any way. But they do fit together because as a human being you're going in and you see this with master class as well. So master classes started, you know, that they have on writing and then they have film direction and then they have gardening and then they have cooking and then they have dog training. You go, Oh, wait a second. They're not connected. Yes, they are connected. I have a dog I got and I cook. They are connected. You what's connecting it is not like I'm a carpet guy and I'm going to do carpets. What's going on? Next thing it is, what is the form of instruction that you're giving, or what is the promise that you're making and their promises, we're not going to have great teachers, some guys like Dan Brown, stunningly good teachers, some guys like Neil Gaiman really good. Others just ramble on, but they're all famous, they've all put in the hard work, they are going to tell you maybe one thing in six hours that will be of use to you. But it comes from that from those people who have achieved their fame and fortune for want of a better word. And so if you're willing to put in that time to listen to them, maybe you'll learn something from them.

 

mark egan  30:41

And that brings me nicely on to what you, I mean, you have a podcast and the title of it gives away it away. But if the people who don't know, explain how your business works now, but how you make that work for you, as far as the lifestyle that you want.

 

Sean D'Souza  30:57

Yeah, so people use it as lifestyle, I just look at it as a normal day, it's, you sleep for about eight hours, or you rest for eight hours, and you work for 16 hours. That's kind of the balance of life, whether you like it or not, or should be the balance of life, there's no reason why it should not be the balance of work. Now there are countries, in Europe, in New Zealand and Australia, there's lots of this. By law, you have to have five weeks off for whatever you have to have done, even if you're an employee in other countries less so in the history of humankind has been one where there'd be no weekends. Even as I think latest 1920 it was considered ridiculous that there would be a weekend in Australia, they were so if you read up on that information, you find that they were fighting, they will say people will get lazy they will, you know, there's so much anger that. So Sunday was for going to church and keeping the day holy or whatever. But all the other days you had to work you have to be industrious. And it doesn't help human beings. So you know, in understand that not everybody has the luxury. But going towards a goal where you have time, because time becomes the biggest thing. As I said at the start, you're able to fix things, you're able to break things and fix them. But basically, you're just wasting time in a productive way. As in, you're doing nothing. And that's kind of very useful. I mean, you can read, you can draw, you can do nothing, just watch people go by. But it's very systematic, we decided that we were going to work for 12 weeks, and then take four weeks off. And that kind of just gives me that downtime. We don't check email, we don't do anything. This is not like a digital nomad, I'm carrying my phone and stuff, and you can get in touch with me know, we're gone for four weeks. And I do whatever I want in those four weeks. And then when I come back, it's back to work. And we've been doing this since 92,004. And what we found was when we didn't take those breaks, it would impact the tightness level. And eventually also impact earning now we don't really look at increasing our income. We've had a kind of ratio that we've wanted to earn. That's been consistent. But I would say that diagnosis doesn't make you any better. But you'd have to wait for some research for that wouldn't do.

 

mark egan  33:40

I love that concept of because it's always sort of made sense to me that why do we build everything so that we don't have that downtime. So I absolutely love that now, I'm running out of time because I'm conscious that I want people to reach completion on this podcast. So one final question to sum up see, I'm learning from him that always learning always learning. A lot of people will be looking to come into the kind of knowledge industry which you've been in for a very long time now, you know, your your veteran, I suppose of this now. And they've seen COVID has changed how people are learning on zoom and all this kind of thing. If somebody has got some expertise, and they're looking Okay, where is this whole thing going? What are going to be the trends? Should it be recorded courses? Should it be things live is all about coaching now? What would your advice be as far as how where is this all going over the next five years? And if somebody wants to be successful in this industry, what should they do?

 

Sean D'Souza  34:33

So nothing has changed. That's the most interesting part. So the media changes. Maybe you couldn't do this over the internet 10 years ago. The media changes. That's it, but nothing. The end result is still the same as the cafe. You go to the cafe to get a good coffee. That's it. So people don't want information on how the coffee is being made. They want the coffee, they want the result. Cinderella doesn't want to know how to get like Fairy Godmother has to do all that stuff. I just want to go to the ball and meet the prince, the end result. So if you start with that, and I think it was a long time ago that one of those books said, you know, start with the end in mind. So what is the end? The end is the result. What am I trying to do, I'm trying to get my dog not to buck 25,000 times a day. That's what I'm trying to do. So how you're going to do that, if you can just get him to stop barking in the morning. That's good. Don't go further 25,000 times a day, just in the morning. And then in the mid morning, then in the afternoon. And then we get to the whole piece of the puzzle. On our website, which is a psycho tactics. When people come, we don't try to solve all their problems. We just give them one report, which is the headline report. And we show them three ways in which you can tweak a headline, and immediately know whether your headline is a good one or a bad one. So how to write it, but how to audit it. And they go, Oh, wow, let me see if I can find something else. So essentially, what's happening there is it's a very small piece of the puzzle. And it has a precise result. So you have to start with the result. And most people start with the information they go, then we write a book, then we put 17 chapters, then we put 43 videos. Well, you're just tiring me out and tiring yourself out.

 

36:30

And so there's a definitely a recurring message there is, you know, get people results, get people progress, keep engaging. And then

 

Sean D'Souza  36:38

yeah, and the most important thing is you don't need anything new. So for instance, we have an article writing course, you can start an article writing course, there are 1 million probably diets out there. If you start a new diet, somebody is going to follow through with it. You don't have to start anything new, that's the most crucial. We have a headline report, you can have a headline report, just figure out how to get them to order those headlines in a different way. That's it, the result is exactly the same. So you find the boring problems, the boring recurring problems, like maybe I know you're doing video, well, 10 years from now, people still want to know how to do a video. It's just a different way different person different style. That's it.

 

37:27

Relate? Well. I could talk to you all day. And all well, it's all night in my mind. So it's helped us then here. But obviously, people have to if they haven't already, by download the brain audit book, which brilliantly puts together how you know people buy in the decision making process how we think. But if you want to find out more, take some of your courses, where should they go?

 

Sean D'Souza  37:54

Well, psycho tactics is a good psycho doctors.com is a good start. They can see how that headline report is put together, so that they can kind of deconstruct it and go, Okay, this is what I need to do as well. 123 get them to this point. And then I can create my own stuff. So maybe you don't do anything else. Just get the headline report and deconstruct, and you'll be fine. Just that. If you're like listening to audio, there's a three month vacation. I know. It's a bad time to have a title like that. But that's fine.

 

38:29

Yeah, no, no. Well, I think the things I really like about what you do is you explain things really well. You when you do things, you obviously try and refine and understand why things are working. And then explain that back to people. And also it's not about like he said that you've got a certain income that you target is not you know, have to buy a yacht or a Ferrari or something. It's the fact that you know, you you value your time and all that kind of thing. So you make what you do and your expertise and your knowledge industry work for you and your your lifestyle. So it's been brilliant talking to you. I really appreciate your time. And yeah, I hope we'll maybe cross paths in person one day.

 

Sean D'Souza  39:06

Yeah. I mean, you still have to come to New Zealand, so

 

39:10

I know I do. Yeah. Middle Earth. Yes. All right, brilliant. Thanks very much, Shawn. If you want to get started showing up on video and sharing your expertise, head over to Mark Egan video comm to access some of my free training. Don't forget to join the knowledge industry group on Facebook. And if you want to connect head to http://www.markEganvideo.com

 

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